SPEAKER_02 0:00

Day one.

SPEAKER_15 0:02

Here I am walking from Saria to Ferreros. Several months ago, I did something I never expected to. I set out on an ancient pilgrimage that dates back to the Middle Ages. Earlier in the year, I had hit one of the lowest points of my life. I felt stuck and spiraling, struggling to find a way forward. And then something strange started happening. Over the course of a few months, I kept hearing about this pilgrimage in Spain called the Camino de Santiago with roots in Catholicism. First, from a friend grappling with complex trauma who was recovering from years of childhood abuse that had finally caught up with her in her 40s. Then from a colleague who had suffered a devastating divorce involving heartbreak and alcoholism. And finally, from an artist who had created an augmented reality documentary that simulated the experience of walking on the Camino. All three of them spoke about how transformative their journeys had been, the healing they'd encountered, and the wonders they'd experienced along the way. The funny thing was, none of them were Catholic. They weren't even all religious. So what was going on? I couldn't see why or how walking 100 kilometers could make such a difference. I'm not Catholic. I'd never been part of a culture or tradition that practiced pilgrimage, though I had come to the Christian faith as a teenager, and I embraced Anglicanism as an adult. Also, to be honest, 100 kilometers sounded like a lot of walking. I wasn't especially athletic as a kid, and I'd never walked that much in my life. I wasn't even sure I'd be able to physically complete that kind of journey. But it felt like the universe was calling, and I finally knew where to take my next step. And I'm Stephanie Tam.

SPEAKER_11 2:17

Welcome to Behavioral Scientist 3.

SPEAKER_15 2:22

The podcast that explores what it means to be human through conversations at the intersection of science and culture and books that illuminate who we are and who we can become. Hey Evan.

SPEAKER_11 2:44

Hey Stephanie.

SPEAKER_15 2:45

So for our final episode of the season, we're doing something a little different. Instead of analyzing the book from our favorite reading chair or speaking to a guest expert from the studio, we're going on a journey.

SPEAKER_11 3:00

That's right. And not just any journey, but a type of travel that comes up repeatedly in Tokarchuk's novel Flights, the ancient and modern tradition of pilgrimage.

SPEAKER_15 3:12

Yes. Today we're asking why have people from around the world and throughout the ages felt compelled to make these physically challenging journeys, often by foot, sometimes even barefoot, to sacred sites. Because it's something that occurs across many different cultures and religions, including Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, and Christianity. And I think there's something that is remarkably universal and human here. Traditionally, pilgrimage not only creates connection between the human and divine, it also creates connections between strangers, sharing the same road. It raises questions of body, mind, and spirit. And for me, I was really curious about how something as simple as a very long walk could be so transformative, not only for people across cultures, but also across centuries. You know, why is the practice of pilgrimage so transformative? How can the journey of a hundred kilometers shape not only who we are, but also who we can become?

SPEAKER_11 4:21

Wow, I love these questions. And for those of us like myself who are not religious or familiar with the tradition of pilgrimage, maybe we should start with the basics. What is the Camino?

SPEAKER_15 4:33

So the Camino de Santiago is Spanish for the way of St. James. And it's this network of pilgrimages to the shrine, or at least what Catholic tradition holds, is the final resting place of the Apostle James.

SPEAKER_11 4:47

And how do we know where James was buried?

SPEAKER_15 4:52

So there are various stories about how St. James's remains were discovered. And one popular story tells that a hermit named Pelagius followed a star, or at least these strange star-like lights in the sky, that led him to the location of the long-lost relics of St. James. A local bishop recognized this as a miracle, and a church was built on the site, which began to attract pilgrims from all over Europe. And there's actually a pretty curious connection with our book club on Olga Tokarchuk's flights and the story of the Camino here. Because the full name of the pilgrimage is El Camino de Santiago de Compostela, because the destination is Santiago de Compostela in Spain. But here's where things get interesting. Compostela is a very old and mysterious word, and there are debates about its etymological origins. And one hypothesis is that it stems from the Latin campus stellae, which means field of the star. In other words, a constellation, you know, because of that story about the hermit who followed starlight to discover the relics. Anyway, when I learned about that, I was like, constellation? Really? Because where else has this idea of a constellation come up recently in our conversations?

SPEAKER_11 6:17

That's amazing. It feels like such a crazy universe coincidence that this story about the etymological origins of the Camino pattern matches like this with the concept behind Tokarchuk's constellation novel.

SPEAKER_15 6:31

Yeah, and maybe that's actually what a constellation is: a universe coincidence, a series of dots in the sky that we as humans connect to create stories, patterns, and meaning.

SPEAKER_11 6:46

Yeah, I love that idea.

SPEAKER_15 6:48

Anyway, over time, the Camino has gained both cultural and historical significance. It's now actually a UNESCO heritage site because pilgrims have been traveling on the Camino ever since the 9th century. And this whole network of almost 1,500 kilometers across Europe has developed. That includes Portugal, France, Italy, Spain, and others, with all the different routes converging at Santiago. It involves cultural heritage sites, cathedrals, churches, hostels, hospitals, all kind of set up to care for the needs of those who are on pilgrimage, or to make profit off them. The kind of cool thing is it becomes this metaphor for life because there are all these people who are doing it at different paces and doing it in different styles. Some of the people who did it were just doing it as a walking challenge because the whole length of, say, the French way is 800 kilometers. I was planning to do the last 115 kilometers of the French way over seven days. Though as it turns out, things did not go exactly as planned.

SPEAKER_11 8:00

And Stephanie, do you know what percentage of pilgrims are doing a religious journey and what number of people are sort of walking this amazing trail, I guess, is maybe how some people might think about it.

SPEAKER_15 8:14

Yeah, I was very curious about this too. So I do have some stats. When you go into Santiago, if you travel more than 100 kilometers by foot or 200 kilometers by cycling, you get a pilgrim certificate. And this is how they collect the numbers. And in 2025, there was a record number of 530,919 pilgrims.

SPEAKER_11 8:39

Wow, that's an incredible number of people who have walked the Camino in just a single year.

SPEAKER_15 8:45

Yeah. So half of them said they were doing it for religious reasons. About a third said they were motivated by a combination of religious and other, whatever that means. And then just under 20% say non-religious. So my guess is that the non-religious reasons include things like cultural and historical or personal challenge and wellness. So yeah, it could just be a really long walk for people with great infrastructure where you can have luggage transport, you can stay at these hostels. There's this whole network of hostels, and the public ones are just 10 euros, which is pretty amazing in terms of a night's stay, if you don't mind bunking with 50 strangers and communal showers. I think the weirdest public shower I had was one where there were no curtains.

SPEAKER_11 9:39

Well, I mean, the fact that there are showers is an improvement since the ninth century, I bet.

SPEAKER_15 9:46

Yes, I'm sure it is. Uh I'm sure many things are an improvement, actually. I will say one thing that was funny. So, you know, everyone asks questions on the Camino like, what brought you here? And it did seem like a combination of things, but I will say one reason that never came up was paying homage to St. James's relics.

SPEAKER_11 10:10

Well, I think that does prove the line. It's the journey, not the destination. If the destination is the relics, but no one's really paying attention to them. You know, Stephanie, the breakdown of people actually kind of surprised me. The number of people who are doing it for a combination of religious and other reasons, and those who are doing it without any religious reasons at all.

SPEAKER_15 10:34

Yeah, I think there's a real modern mystery here. Back in the Middle Ages, the Camino was one of the most important Christian pilgrimages, with men and women making their way to Santiago for a variety of religious motivations like devotion and atonement. Pilgrimage has this theological symbolism around the idea that we're all pilgrims on earth and we're journeying to our true home with God. So why are more people than ever choosing to walk over 100 kilometers to Santiago today, with numbers steadily increasing each year? That over half a million in 2025, both religious and non-religious, include people from Asia and Africa, Australia and the Middle East, and the Americas as well as Europe. So I was really curious about this. In the novel flights, Tokarchuk has these travel questions like, where are you from and where are you going? And these questions come up on the Camino as well, although it's more like, where are you from and where did you start? Because obviously everyone's coming to the same place, Santiago. But then there are these other layers of questions that get asked. So one pilgrim I met was asking everyone, what are you walking away from? And what are you walking towards? Because for many people on the Camino, it's actually not just a long walk. They're searching for something, or trying to leave something behind. And I think that's part of what makes a pilgrimage different from other kinds of travel, the kinds of questions that it raises, and the quality of curiosity that people carry.

SPEAKER_11 12:17

So, Stephanie, I feel like this is a good time to ask, what were you searching for and what did you find?

SPEAKER_15 12:26

Well, Evan, the thing about the Camino is it's not about the destination, it's about the journey. So to answer that question, you'll have to join me on that journey.

SPEAKER_11 12:38

All right, I'm excited. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_15 12:46

So on May 29th, I took a plane from London to Santiago. And, like the audiophile that I am, I kept a voice diary of my pilgrimage. Every day, I recorded observations and reflections throughout my journey, when I sit out, when I arrived, and various other moments. I also asked other pilgrims to contribute to it. And on my flight, I noticed that about half the people around me seemed to be carrying walking gear. It made me wonder how many of us were there with the same plan? Flying to Santiago and then head to Saria. Saria is one of the most popular gateways for the Camino because it meets the minimum required distance of 100 kilometers to receive your pilgrimage certificate.

SPEAKER_16 13:35

So you are you going to Saria? Yeah, you too. Yeah, you too.

SPEAKER_14 13:39

Are you planning to take the bus or in a group? Yeah. Although I realized you know on the map, it's actually like 114 kilometers.

SPEAKER_16 14:04

And then people started talking me back into it again. That's good, yes.

SPEAKER_15 14:08

Several hours and one very serendipitous lift offer from a couple of pilgrims who were also headed the same way. I arrived at my starting point in Saria. It's very charming. There are lovely little stone houses, mostly just two to three stories. And sparrows! Sparrows nesting under the balcony on the eaves of the doors. I can hear them chirping all around. There are tons of sparrows here in Sarat. All good signs for the start of my pilgrimage. So, in order to receive your pilgrimage certificate, also known as a compostela, you need to get a pilgrim passport. I asked for one at Myelberge, which is basically a budget-friendly dormitory-style hostel for pilgrims on the Camino. Um Do you know where to get the Camino passport?

SPEAKER_05 15:11

Yes, uh we have here if you Oh you have it. Okay, yes. Uh por favor. Yeah, this is two euros. So you start tomorrow. Okay, so I put the date of tomorrow. Okay. Okay, and you need minimum two stamps per day of different towns. So you have the first one of Sarria. When you go out of Sarria, you can put another one minimum in another uh town. In bar restaur restaurants, church, hostels, everywhere. Okay. Okay, so you need two per day.

SPEAKER_15 15:38

Yeah, minimum. Okay, gracias. When you arrive at Santiago, they check your stamps and dates to make sure you've collected two per day along a minimum of 100 kilometers, and certify that you officially completed the pilgrimage. So I went to bed that night, and I probably would have had some trouble sleeping anyway, just from the nerves. But I found myself awake much earlier than expected. I'm not sure if you've ever heard the sound of a dozen people packing up their bags, but it is surprisingly loud. I checked the time and it was about 4:30 a.m., and all of these pilgrims at the hostel were up and getting ready to head out. I'll be honest, I am not a morning person. My happy place would be getting up at 8 or 9, but it is virtually impossible to stay asleep when everyone else around you is bustling about. So I found myself getting up with everyone else. And while I was still half asleep brushing my teeth, I met this bright-eyed and bushy-tailed woman who was telling me how she had started her trek three weeks ago at Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port, which is the 800-kilometer starting point for the French way of the Camino. And she told me that very first day, hiking over the Pyrenees Mountains, the temperature had dropped to zero degrees and they had been hit by 100 kilometer winds. People were being literally picked up and thrown across the path in their rain ponchos, even with their heavy backpacks.

SPEAKER_17 17:15

At the end, now I'm looking back, it's it just gives me more strength, saying whenever I have difficulties, if I manage the first day, I can manage everything. That's the first day.

SPEAKER_14 17:25

This was the first day.

SPEAKER_17 17:26

Wow. That's well, well done. I have a lovely experience. It's worth to do it.

SPEAKER_14 17:33

I can only say we enjoy it a lot.

unknown 17:36

See you.

SPEAKER_15 17:37

Bye. So that was an inspiring and humbling first encounter. After that, I did feel a bit like, okay, I'm just one of the lame 100-kilometer people starting out now after the big mountains and snowstorms. But I also didn't want to treat the pilgrimage like a competition or a physical challenge. So the first three days were mostly an exercise in not rushing.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

Day one, here I am walking from Saria to Ferreros.

SPEAKER_15 18:17

About 13 and a half kilometers. Seven and a half miles. So gentle start to the Camino pilgrimage. I split my first 20-kilometer leg into two days. Partly because I wasn't that confident I could actually complete those longer distances, and I wanted to ease myself in. But I also just wanted to be very intentional about my journey. I'd been very disconnected from my body, and I wanted to soak everything in and enjoy the nature. The trails are dotted with these markers that have a yellow arrow pointing out the direction to go, and a scallop shell, which is the symbol of the Camino, and the distance in kilometers to your final destination. So, at least for the last 100 kilometers, you don't even really need a map or a phone. You can just follow the arrows all the way to Santiago. There's a remarkable simplicity and literal straightforwardness that makes it incredibly easy to be present.

SPEAKER_14 19:29

There are these beautiful old trees.

SPEAKER_15 19:42

Also these lovely pictures of just a little trail of dew on them. Along the way, there were also these little shrines that people had set up, where they left photos, trinkets, and notes. Often it would be a photo of a loved one that they were grieving. I stopped to read all of them, and it was this curious way in which I was walking on my own, but also in fellowship with those who came before me. And I started picking up rocks and putting them down at the markers for each of the things that I was trying to put down and pick up on my pilgrimage. And I stopped to take a lot of photos of the scenery and the wildlife. So I made friends with animals, I said hello to all the cows along the way and the cats in the villages I passed through. I savored the meals. One restaurant offered this pilgrim meal for 15 euros, and it included steak and fries, this giant salad that was itself the size of a main course, a huge chunk of bread, a glass of water and wine, and a slice of cake. I actually didn't think I could finish all of it, but it turns out that walking eight miles works with quite an appetite. And at the same restaurant, I met a floppy-haired pup that had wandered in off the road and went to sleep right next to me while I was eating. People would pass by and ask me, Is that your dog? Oh my goodness, it is so cute. And I'd say, actually, no, I think it's a stray, but it is very cute. So I saved it a little piece of steak, and then for the first time, it woke up and wagged its tail, and that was very sweet. And then when no one was looking, I broke up my bread to feed the sparrows like a Disney character. It was a very contemplative but solitary first three days.

SPEAKER_11 21:42

Stephanie, I know you were going into the Camino with the expectation that things would be new and unpredictable. But was there anything that still really surprised you, even though you had already set the bar really high?

SPEAKER_15 21:54

Uh yeah, totally. I do feel like I had high expectations, especially When it came to the conversations I had heard about people having on the trail. And I actually halfway in thought that it was not going to be great because for the first few days, everyone I chatted to was very friendly, but it was sort of at the level of small talk. And not only that, but there are a handful of questions that everyone asks when you meet. And one of them is, why are you walking this path? Or how did you find out about the Camino? And for the first few days, everyone said basically some version of, oh, I saw the movie The Way.

SPEAKER_09 22:47

This is everything it had when we found it. People have walked the path for over a thousand years. The way is a very personal journey, Mr. Hugh. And it was my only child.

SPEAKER_06 23:03

So what is it on pilgrimage to change your life? Something like that.

SPEAKER_15 23:17

Or oh, I saw this reality TV show called Pilgrimage.

SPEAKER_06 23:22

TV presenter JJ Chalmers, priest Kate Botley, and actor Neil Morrissey are heading to a monastery once known for its vineyards.

SPEAKER_08 23:33

Is my Spanish good or bad? Does that say Fuente del Vino? What does that mean? Fountain of wine.

SPEAKER_06 23:48

It's really nice. In Arache, the local vineyard supplies over 100 litres of wine a day, free of charge.

SPEAKER_15 23:58

Which is apparently a British reality TV show where celebrities do pilgrimages.

SPEAKER_07 24:04

That actually for me is a really spiritual moment. Jesus said, I've come that you might have life and have it in all its abundance.

SPEAKER_08 24:11

Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_07 24:13

A lot of people do the Camino in the idea that through pain comes a greater understanding of God and that self-denial is the way to salvation. That's not quite my theology. This is far more my theology.

SPEAKER_15 24:25

And apparently there's also this Korean TV show that had the Camino in it. So it was, oh, I saw this movie, or a TV show, basically. By day three, I was thinking, okay, I guess things have changed since I learned about this. You no longer have those deep, soul-bearing conversations. You just talk about reality TV shows and walking holidays, and that's okay, I guess. Life is not always what you expect. Still, there were moments of real wonder. One of my favorite moments was the morning I started walking about an hour before sunrise. Here I am, day three of my Camino. And it is 6.07 a.m. I am leaving Porto Marin. And my next stage is Palais de Re. And this moon is still out, which is beautiful. I started out in the darkness, but gradually, as I climbed up the trail through this quiet stretch of woods, the sky began to lighten. And by the time I got to the top of the trail, everything was glowing.

SPEAKER_02 26:12

On one side we have the moon. The moon setting. And then behind the rising sun.

SPEAKER_15 26:48

The woodland trail had opened out onto this beautiful, glowing field lined by backlit trees. And I think because there was just so much beauty and joy from nature that day, I told myself I will take all the scenic detours. Even though that day was going to be my longest distance yet at 26 kilometers. So I had an app that highlighted interesting sites along the Camino. So I took a slight detour. I'm going to visit this historical fort site. It actually took me a while to find because it was not very well marked.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

And I believe it's Iron Age remains of a fort.

SPEAKER_15 27:42

It was incredible and surprisingly extensive. You couldn't see it from the trail, but there was this massive mound, and down below, all these walls and enclaves, almost like a stone maze. It's just like 50 meters or so from the Camino.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

And so cool.

SPEAKER_00 28:03

And of course, to send a video to James.

SPEAKER_15 28:10

So I took this video to send to my husband James, who loves archaeology. In a former life, he was a classicist and historian. And to my surprise, he called me back laughing. He told me that while I was waxing poetic about these historical ruins. It's a beautiful view.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

From up here, you can see the countryside. Oh, and everyone on the Camino over there, I think.

SPEAKER_15 28:39

Probably wishing they took this detour. There were two guys having a very different kind of conversation behind me.

SPEAKER_06 28:48

Did you go in the house of the post? Yes, yes. Especially at the end of the group.

SPEAKER_15 28:54

So cool.

SPEAKER_07 28:56

That was a lovely group.

SPEAKER_15 28:57

So glad I did this. Yeah, so they were talking about going to a brothel.

SPEAKER_11 29:05

Oh man. Oh. Wow, that is too funny. And I think it's important for people to know that James is a vicar in the Anglican church. So I am imagining him at work in the morning in the church office, playing the video on his phone, and the priest and the other church leaders are in earshot.

SPEAKER_15 29:26

Yeah, I mean, it may have been a modern brothel or perhaps a historic one that's no longer in use. I don't really know what was going on there. But I feel like it's such a great example of the sacred and the profane in travel, because, you know, Tokarczyk has this thing about sex tourism and people traveling for all kinds of different reasons, behaving in all kinds of different ways. And when you travel, you're also looking for all kinds of different things, right? So anyway, after my delightful fort detour, I was feeling pretty good. I knocked off 20 kilometers, I had a full lunch and an ice cream, and then the next detour opportunity presented itself. According to my app, it was supposedly this one and a half kilometer detour to one of the most beautiful Romanesque churches of the period. And you wouldn't even have to backtrack to reconnect to the main trail. And although it was scheduled to be closed, there were comments from users about how there was a lovely caretaker who lived just up the hill, and you just had to go knock on his door. His name was Jesus, or Jesus, and he had given all these people this private tour of the church, and it was the most magical moment on the Camino. So I read those comments and I was like, you know what? I feel great. There's only five kilometers left to my albergue, and I could have a magical encounter with Jesus, no less. So I'm gonna do it. And then three kilometers later, up this very not idyllic tarmac car road in nearly 80-degree weather, because it was getting really hot by this point late afternoon. I was like, where is this church? Finally, several highway road crossings later, I found it. And I was actually really tired at this point. I went up the hill to find Jesus, the nice caretaker, and I found this man and his wife having their siesta lunch. And they were like, nope, sorry, church is closed, come back tomorrow. So I was hoping the man could at least point me to the onward route, since my app had said you don't need to backtrack. But he pointed me right back down the way I came, and I was like, no. I have to go back down the gross, not scenic tarmac route over the highway and back. And it was not one and a half kilometers, it was probably something more like five. So that detour was not magical at all. And by the end of the day, I ended up walking 32 kilometers, and I had developed this blotchy hiker's rash from the heat and the exertion, and that night I actually felt quite despondent because I had gone looking for magic and failed to find it. I was halfway into my Camino, and the only connection I had really made was with a stray dog that I basically bribed with steak. I had started the day on a high, but that night I hit my lowest point, and I finally admitted to myself that I was exhausted and lonely.

SPEAKER_11 33:04

So that detour sounds pretty disappointing and kind of painful. But honestly, that almost seems like its own metaphor. You know, we like to say, be spontaneous, take risks. And sometimes that leads to a magical encounter, but sometimes it just leads to a dead end with this guy taking a siesta who is totally done for the day, and there's no payoff, and it just kind of sucks. But in the end, you know, you get where you're going, it's just a few hours later, and you're a little bit worse for wear. But at least you know you tried.

SPEAKER_15 33:39

Yeah, it didn't feel that way at the time. It just felt meaningless and wasteful. But I can see how in retrospect you could connect the dots that way. There was a lot about the Camino that felt very metaphorical, and that was something that struck me when geographer Tim Cresswell talked about how the airport and travel are these metaphors for how people choose to move through life and can move through life. The Camino felt the same way. In fact, I actually had an entire conversation with a group of pilgrims about the Camino as metaphor. I met a German girl and a New Yorker and this Australian, and we were talking about like, what do you think the Camino is? And they were saying, well, you know, the obvious metaphor is that it's just life, right? You're all walking at your different paces in your different ways, and you're all headed to the same destination. But everyone arrives at Santiago at some point. On the way, some people only bring what they can carry and only carry what they need: two pairs of clothes, a water bottle, first aid, basic toiletries. Other people do luggage transport, where you can send your bag ahead to the next albergue. And some people do organized tours, which combines luggage transport with hotel and restaurant bookings. And actually, a lot of people I talked to in those first three days chose that option because they didn't really like the idea of staying in hostels or the hassle of finding a place to stay each night. Like, you know, what if there are no bookings available? Or what if there are bed bugs? What if people snore really loudly? Or there are smells. And in fact, those are all things you encounter. Everyone at the hostels has eye masks and earplugs, and sometimes that is still not enough because there are some very loud noses out there. So for some people, it's more like a walking holiday rather than a change my life kind of thing. And there's no judgment there. The group was talking about how there's no wrong way to do the Camino. But then the Australian guy said, well, there's no wrong way to do the Camino. But I did encounter one tour group that was chauffeured to and from the trail each day. Because, you know, the hotel is usually a few additional kilometers off the route. So with car service, they could do the absolute minimum distance to hit 100 kilometers. And while they walked, their large roly suitcases were sent on ahead of them. And at the end of the day, they were greeted at their hotel with champagne. And he was like, and I don't know, maybe this is also a metaphor for life. Like all the billionaires are also traveling to Santiago in their own way.

SPEAKER_11 36:42

With chauffeurs and champagne. Yeah. You know, what's so interesting is all the ways that people approach the same journey. I mean, the metaphor is almost too perfect. If we think back about how people may have walked the Camino a few hundred years ago, I'm wondering if there have always been the pampered pilgrims with parasols and large trunks and carriages, you know, shuffling between the points. And then there have been, you know, the other pilgrims.

SPEAKER_15 37:14

The barefoot pilgrims.

SPEAKER_11 37:15

Yes, the the barefoot pilgrims.

SPEAKER_15 37:18

It's interesting too, because there's this sense in which you're trying to extract what you want from this thing that is literally built to be open-spirited. And in many ways, the spirit and simplicity of the journey is the point. There's a saying on the Camino, which is the Camino provides. And as someone who's quite anxious, I knew it was going to be a struggle to just show up and not plan and, you know, go where the spirit leads. So I was trying to lean into this by only booking my first two nights and last night. And I did have some real doubts about that choice the morning I was woken up at 4:30 a.m. by a room full of strangers. But then again, one of my favorite places was actually staying at a public albergue which didn't take reservations. You basically just rock up and it's first come, first serve. And it's a little bit scary if you're an anxious person because you're thinking, will there be a bed? Will I get there in time? Because, you know, there might be some very competitive group of pilgrims that has been walking since 5 a.m. and taken all the spots. But then I guess what I heard from pilgrims was that actually, even if you don't have a space, the volunteers at the public albergues won't leave you to sleep on the streets. They'll pull out a mattress for you, or find somewhere else for you. So you don't need to worry about where you'll sleep. And I think you do find a lot of kindness and a lot of hospitality from strangers when you need it.

SPEAKER_11 38:57

Okay, so that discussion about the Camino as a metaphor for life sounds more like the kind of deep diving conversations that you were expecting to encounter. Does that mean you finally found some magical connections with strangers?

SPEAKER_15 39:14

Yeah, and in a funny way, they also defied my expectations.

SPEAKER_02 39:22

Okay. Here we are, day four of my community. It is 7:34 a.m.

SPEAKER_15 39:32

We have 66 kilometers to Santiago. So after the first three days of walking mostly on my own, I was starting to accept that I was just gonna spend my pilgrimage making small talk about TV shows. And at the start of day four, I was trying to cheer myself on, but you can tell I'm also feeling a bit down. The air is very damp, overcast, skies, and it's probably the least lovely looking morning so far. But then I began to have a series of these uncanny encounters. I don't know what else to call them, except, well, universe coincidences. Each person or conversation connected in some way with something I was carrying, a secret hurt or hidden joy. And it started with these two women, who were perhaps in their 60s, that I met in this misty, ancient woodland. I had stopped to admire the trees, and like the nerd I am, I commented out loud, wow, it looks like Middle-earth. And they came up behind me and said, Yeah, it does. So we started talking, and it turned out that one of them had actually volunteered at the same nonprofit I worked for years ago, on the other side of the world, no less. They told me they were keeping a journal to pray for everyone they met on the trail, which I found really touching. So I asked if there was something they wanted prayer for themselves. And one of the women told me about how she'd had this abusive marriage and had to raise her two children single-handedly, and all the things that she was trying still to leave behind. Back then, she said people didn't talk about domestic abuse. You just had to carry on with your life, you know, put sunglasses and a hat on and go to the supermarket. The other women had also gone through a tough divorce, and so a mutual friend had suggested they walk the Camino together. They were at a stage in their lives when they hadn't expected to be alone, and from a generation that didn't teach them how to be on their own as women. The pilgrimage was a way for them to start fresh. And along the way, she was discovering that the thing that had looked like death was really the beginning of new life. Beauty for ashes was the phrase she used. And she told me, I'm looking for new beginnings. And this is the first thing that I've done for myself that is truly life-giving in a very, very long time. We spent the whole morning walking together, and we helped each other shelter from the rain, because it's actually very difficult to take out your rain gear and cover your pack while staying dry on your own. And by the end of those three hours, we had shared stories and burdens with each other that normally it might take years or never to get to that kind of vulnerability. For those few hours, it was as though I had gained two mothers. When we parted ways, I felt this bittersweet gratitude because they had given me more than they could know, and I didn't know if I would ever see them again.

SPEAKER_02 43:18

Okay. Godspeed. Well, buen camino. Buen camino. Who knows? We may run into you again. Yes, yeah. If not now in eternity.

SPEAKER_18 43:28

Bye, Stephanie.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

Bye.

SPEAKER_15 43:31

On the Camino, I heard stories about parents who had lost children and children who had lost parents. People who had lost jobs or left them. People whose lives had been hit by metaphorical 100 kilometer winds, and were just trying to pick up the pieces along the way. I was thinking later about what made that conversation so vulnerable. And I'm sure there are many different factors and selection traits at work. There's a level of intentionality that is required to opt into a 100-kilometer pilgrimage. And the philosophy that the Camino provides is an invitation to step out of your comfort zone, to open yourself to others, and embrace serendipity. You're meeting people from around the world, and you don't know who you'll meet, if you'll be with them for an hour or the whole day. And when you say goodbye, you also don't know what it means, whether you'll run into each other again in a few days or never see each other again. And ironically, maybe that uncertainty actually allows you to open yourself up to strangers in a way that can otherwise be quite rare. Later that day, I met a couple of Vietnamese Americans in their late 40s and two 24-year-olds. And since I'm in my mid-30s, we formed this kind of interesting intergenerational dynamic. I found them in a very different kind of setting. A Spanish pulperia, where they were known for serving the best octopus. I sat down next to them because they were clearly having a great time. They had finished something like four sharing platters and maybe eight bottles of wine, and were just ordering some more, which they invited me to share with them. The two younger ones, Evie and Brooke, were both carrying notebooks.

SPEAKER_13 45:42

Yeah, so Evie and I, so she used her notebook as a journal. She's pretty into journaling, and I used it to collect advice from different people. I think that's a really valuable way to broaden your perspective.

SPEAKER_15 45:53

That's Brooke. She contributed a voice note for me to share. So Brooke asked me to put something down in her notebook, and I can't actually remember what I wrote. But then Evie started asking these questions about faith because she was not religious herself, but she was curious and critical about religion. Actually, both of them were, even though Brooke had been raised Catholic.

SPEAKER_13 46:17

Now that I've graduated and I'm starting my third year of my neuroscience PhD, I've been exploring just other ways that faith can present itself and like the intersection, even between Judaism, even between Islam and Christianity, and I think that's been a really wonderful experience.

SPEAKER_15 46:33

I think that on the Camino, most people who are seeking pilgrimage are looking for some kind of transformation. And they're open to new experiences and people. You know, I'm not Catholic, but I did go to Catholic Mass on the Camino because I was curious about those elements of what is traditionally a Catholic pilgrimage. Sort of the way that when I was in Thailand, I also visited Buddhist temples. And my friend Evie told me she had a great experience, simply enjoying the people and nature and adventure.

SPEAKER_03 47:08

I myself personally am not very religious, but I know that some people go in expecting to figure out what their purpose is in life. And I'm sure that some people do find that, but I think because I personally had no intentions with it other than to just enjoy it. I thought that I didn't need that pressure on myself and I could just really be in the moment. I guess that was my goal.

SPEAKER_15 47:33

They asked about my relationship to religion, and I said something about how I actually experience Christianity as more of a relationship than a religion. Something that shapes how you connect with the world and others beyond yourself. And and that, in turn, also shapes you and evolves over time.

SPEAKER_13 47:53

So I appreciated the fact that you and I and Evie and other people could have a very fruitful conversation that actually led me to do a lot more research on the intersection of different Christian faiths.

SPEAKER_15 48:05

In addition to being impressed by how much they could eat and drink, I was really struck by how thoughtful they were. After we left, Brooke told me she was gonna spend the rest of the afternoon reflecting on our conversation.

SPEAKER_13 48:18

Um I'm actually now like, because of the Camino, reading a lot more about different world religions. And I bought a couple books that I have yet to read, but I'll read soon.

SPEAKER_15 48:27

There was this really interesting giving and receiving dynamic between the generations on the Camino. Because later on, I actually shared some of my own struggles with the Vietnamese Americans, and it turns out that they had experienced a lot of intergenerational trauma in their families, and some of the very things I was carrying on the Camino when they were my age.

SPEAKER_12 48:50

You know, in reflecting on the journey, we've had a lot of wonderful conversations. That's Tao.

SPEAKER_15 48:58

And she told me, here's the way forward. Here are the boundaries you need to set.

SPEAKER_12 49:03

This is when you just need to get up and go. And you know, I think I was able to provide also some insight in just some of the experiences that I've gone through and how my husband and I have overcome them to get to the point where we're at now.

SPEAKER_15 49:23

They were literally advising me how to break the cycles I felt stuck in. And it was incredible because what are the odds? There were not that many Asian Americans on the trail, but we found each other. And okay, I mean we found each other at a foodie hotspot in Malid. So if there was a place you were gonna find Asian Americans on the Camino, that was it. But still, it was a remarkable universe coincidence.

SPEAKER_11 50:07

That's interesting to hear about the generations. I I really like that. And it reminds me of Elizabeth Weingarten's book, How to Fall in Love with Questions. You know, the right question can lead you to a place you'd never expect. What questions came up that you felt, I don't know, were particularly like an interesting unlock for a group of people that were basically strangers?

SPEAKER_15 50:35

Yeah. Um, well, I met this Australian and he had clearly been thinking a lot about questions because he was telling me about these Camino prompts that he had collected along his walk. And uh he'd been walking for four or five weeks on the trail. So this was kind of his last leg. And his favorite question was, what are you walking away from? And what are you walking towards? And he told me that he was walking towards mutualism and that he was at this stage in his life where, you know, he had three sons who were basically grown up, and he would like to live in a way that was full of reciprocity. So in relationships where there was both giving and receiving. But at the same time, he had been inspired by Saint Francis of Assisi, who was one of the first pilgrims of the Camino, and is actually known for a prayer that I think has become known as the Peace Prayer. I'm not sure how much you know about Saint Francis of Assisi, but he's the patron saint of ecology. So he's often represented with birds and animals all over him on his head and arms and whatever.

SPEAKER_11 51:55

And like this very traditional brown tunic, and he's got the sort of bowl cut and the bald spot.

SPEAKER_15 52:02

Yeah. And his legacy was all over the Camino, probably partly because it's this intersection of faith and ecology and an environment and peace, and there is definitely a hippie vibe on the Camino, unsurprisingly. And this prayer that is attributed to him is essentially about giving more than you receive.

SPEAKER_00 52:25

And this is the quote Lord grant that I may seek to comfort more than to be comforted, to understand more than to be understood, to love more than to be loved. For it is by self-forgetting that one finds it is by forgiving that one that one is forgiven, and it is by dying that one awakens to eternal life. So it's a self-effacing kind of way of being in the world that's less about me and what I can get, and more about me and what I bring.

SPEAKER_15 52:56

So I walked with this guy for a morning and then developed these terrible shin splints, and I don't think I've even had shin splints before, but every step was super painful. And this Australian guy who I had just met had actually had shin splints in the first week of his Camino. And so he had all this tape and medical advice on how to deal with them. And he literally, we stopped at the side of the road and he taped up my legs and was like, you know, you're the sixth person I've taped up with shin splints. And that was also kind of crazy because I was like, what are the odds that the day I get horrible shin splints, I'm walking with this shin splint commun.

SPEAKER_11 53:43

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_15 53:44

Also, I'd been walking 16 kilometers at this point. So, you know, midday Spanish sun, you're not at your most fragrant, shall we say? And he was like, Okay, so take off your shoes, take off your socks, and prop your bare feet up on me, and I'll tape you up. So it was like this very surreal, Christ-like moment where this guy had my smelly bare feet in his hands, taping up my shins, after he had literally just been telling me how he's moving into a stage of his life where he wants to give more than he receives.

SPEAKER_11 54:21

It's like the the the 21st century version of washing of the feet.

SPEAKER_15 54:28

Yeah, yeah, basically. All right, today is day seven, my final day of my pilgrimage to Santiago. The last day of my Camino, I was still suffering from shin splints that made me extremely slow. And as I was about five kilometers from the end, these two men who must have been in their 70s came up behind me and we started talking. They were brothers-in-law walking the 800-kilometer route together. One of them was limping slightly because he had a back problem. The other man, who was Chilean, told me he had a kidney disease that meant he had to inject himself with medication daily. Frankly, I was amazed that they were doing the Camino at all. But the Chilean man told me, well, it's been on my bucket list for years, and it's not like it's gonna get any easier at my age. So I figured I'll just carry a refrigerator for my meds and all these battery packs to keep it powered on the trail. And just as I was calculating how much extra weight that had to add, he said, and my brother-in-law there, he's got an oxygen machine on his back. So they were using luggage transport to send on all their other clothing and gear. But still, they had walked 800 kilometers with a refrigerator and an oxygen machine in their 70s. Just like that woman I had met on my first day, it was an incredibly inspiring and humbling encounter on my last day. And there we were, walking into Santiago together on our final day. When you get into Santiago, you walk through these winding, cobbled streets to get to the cathedral. One coming now. Lots of pilgrims passing. And you start seeing other pilgrims streaming in from all these different directions into the city. Because my route was actually just one of many. Others are coming in from the Portuguese way, the Celtic way, the Camino Primitivo, and so on. But they all converge at Santiago. And there's this dark tunnel that leads into the cathedral plaza, where everyone is headed. Oh my god. I think this is it. And as you catch sight of the cathedral, you hear these bagpipes playing because there's a musician in the tunnel welcoming the pilgrims in with music. So you descend through the tunnel. People you haven't seen since the start of your pilgrimage were halfway in and weren't sure if you'd ever see again. They're all suddenly there. The German girl I had talked about the Camino as metaphor with on day five. And the Koreans who had cooked kimchi fried rice in my friend's albergue. There was the Chilean man and his brother-in-law carrying their refrigerator and oxygen that I had just met that morning. And one man is on his knees, weeping with his face down on the ground in front of the cathedral. It makes me wonder what he went through to get here. But mostly, people are celebrating, laughing joyfully, and running around to greet all the old and new friends they made along the way.

unknown 59:42

Congratulations! Yes, well done!

SPEAKER_07 59:45

Well done! I have to go on a tour, I fight for my tour, but congratulations! Thank you.

SPEAKER_15 59:50

And you know, I am not someone who spends a great deal of time thinking about what happens after we die. But in that moment, I felt like I was glimpsing something like the Great Reunion. It felt like a thin place. A moment where heaven was touching earth. After celebrating at Santiago, many pilgrims go on to a place called Finistera, which is Latin for land's end or the end of the world. It's actually another 90-kilometer walk, so a few pilgrim friends and I just drove out there. My friend Evie actually told me that was her favorite memory.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:42

Here we are at Finistera, the end of the world. I thought that that was really fun because it felt like our relationship was lasting outside of just this one route that everyone was taking, that we weren't really ready to say goodbye to the Camino and to the journey yet. So y'all took that decision to just go a little bit further, go a little bit out of our way, and make the last trip to the end of the world.

SPEAKER_15 1:01:10

You guys want to wave my buddies, companions to the end of the world? It's this craggy cliff that looks out onto the ocean.

SPEAKER_14 1:01:19

Look at these beautiful, um, is this gorse, I think, gorse bushes?

SPEAKER_15 1:01:23

The yellow wind-blown gorse bushes on the left. And there's a man who looks like a barefoot pilgrim playing the flute, a wooden flute. And what some pilgrims do is find a stone and throw it into the sea as a symbol for the burden that they were carrying, the thing they're trying to let go of, and leave behind. And since I am a symbolic cheese ball, I did that too. Go ahead. The only thing is, there's a lot of cliff between you and the sea. So my throw, well, let's just say it fell very short.

SPEAKER_18 1:02:01

Well, well, well short. Well short.

SPEAKER_15 1:02:06

And my friends were laughing at me and saying, that definitely did not go into the sea. And I was like, okay, well, you know what, it's the symbolism that matters. And then my Vietnamese-American friend Tao asked me, so did you find what you're looking for? And while we were sharing this heart-to-heart moment on this cliff at the world's end, I started hearing this harp music. And we turned around, and this person had actually brought a harp to the cliff's edge and just started playing contemplative harp music right behind us. So the universe clearly has a sense of humor. It was very, very strange and very special.

SPEAKER_11 1:02:57

Wow, I absolutely love this. I mean, this is such a scene. You could you couldn't even script it. You've got you missing the stone throw, and then this joyful and tearful heart to heart, and then this harp starts up. I guess sometimes life gives you frustrating detours, and sometimes life gives you harp music.

SPEAKER_15 1:03:20

Yeah, and even that stone throw could be read as a metaphor of sorts. Because maybe some of the things that are most painful that we most want to hurl into the sea, like grief, aren't actually things to get rid of. Not only because you literally can't get rid of them, although that's probably true too. I think some wounds do create holes that never go away, and I also think it's natural to want them out of your life. But also because maybe grief isn't something that's meant to be fixed. And even though the hole never shrinks, you grow around it, and you become even more expansive with it in your life.

SPEAKER_11 1:04:06

I really appreciate that perspective on grief, Stephanie. You know, when we began your journey, we were talking about why so many people feel transformed by the Camino. Now that you're back to your normal day-to-day, what do you make of the experience?

SPEAKER_15 1:04:24

Yeah, I've been thinking a lot about what made the Camino feel so special. Because, you know, at one level, it is literally just a very long walk. But I do think there are certain aspects of intentionality and serendipity and openness that factor into the connections formed between strangers on the trail. And there's something else too. If I were to kind of describe the two modalities of my Camino experience, it would be on the one hand, there were quiet, solitary times where I was walking on my own and being present in nature and listening attentively to my physical needs, you know, basic water, food, rest, reflecting, praying, being present. And then on the other hand, at the other end of the spectrum, there was being with people in community constantly. And both in the physical sense at the Albergues, where as soon as you step through the door, you're thrust into these very close quarters with a group of strangers, but also in conversations, the kind of depth of connections and sharing that happens quite quickly, again, with people you just met. And so much of my ordinary life actually exists between those two things. So it's busy and crowded and noisy, and I don't always have time to think or the space to pause and reflect. And so many of my interactions with people consist of small talk or some sort of networking. Which also has this extractive component. And so actually having those two different modalities of the quiet, solitary time and the communal depth and connection is rare. And on the Camino, it felt like you were kind of alternating between them. And the weird thing is, it felt more real than my day-to-day. I mean, the Camino is clearly not my day-to-day reality. But at the same time, it felt like I was touching on something, some kind of reality under the fabric of the everyday that was true and good and beautiful. And that's kind of what it felt like out there. And I don't entirely know what to do with that. If those are just mountaintop moments that you have to return from back to your busy, noisy world, or whether there's some way you can kind of recreate or cultivate that space and that quality of connection in the world. I mean, this is getting a bit spiritual, but there's a theological concept that C.S. Lewis talks about that the present is this point at which time touches eternity. And so it's when we're present that we inhabit true freedom and reality. And when we meditate on eternity, we are also paradoxically fully present. And I'm pretty sure this is actually common to other faith traditions. Buddhist thought has a lot on mindfulness around presence and true reality. And it's also connected to the idea psychologically that dwelling too much on the past, that's the domain of regret, bitterness, and resentment. And then fixating too much on the future can cause anxiety, greed, and discontentment.

SPEAKER_11 1:07:49

Stephanie, what I've appreciated so much about going on this journey with you is all the ways it complicated my expectations for what a pilgrimage is, and how it complicated your own ideas for how your journey would go. It's easy to get caught up, even paralyzed by expectations, but maybe to find what you're looking for, you just need to take that first step. Open yourself up to the world, get out there, and get moving. There's this great line in the novel 100 Years of Solitude. One of the characters, she loses a wedding ring, and she keeps looking for it in all the places she normally goes throughout the day. And the great grandmother realizes that if you've lost something, it's most likely in a place you don't normally go. And there's a wonderful line that has stuck with me, and it goes, Fernanda looked for it in vain along the paths of her everyday itinerary, without knowing that the search for lost things is hindered by routine habits. And that is why it's so difficult to find them. So, Stephanie, perhaps this is the time to ask, did you find what you were looking for?

SPEAKER_15 1:09:02

Good question. The truth is, it's a question, I'm still walking out. Because ultimately, I didn't come back with an answer. I came back with a story. Or rather, a constellation of stories. So that's what I'd like to leave us with at the end of our journey together. The stories that my Camino family shared with me when I asked them what they were walking away from and what they were walking towards.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:32

Right, I'm KG Leigh. I live in Norwich. First question: what drew you to the Camino? Well, last March I decided to block my mom because of her abusive behaviors. And after that, I was having nightmares pretty much every night. And I had so much anger in me that was it felt like a physical energy. So I just realized I needed to do something physically spiritual. And so yeah, I came across Camino. I was like, brilliant. That would be a perfect combination. A physical process that has a spiritual go in mind.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:16

Hey, this is Daniel from Portland, Oregon. And what drew me to the Camino was the opportunity to have a sort of rite of passage. I had been in a marriage in a long-term relationship for about nine years, and that ended. And I was looking for something that was gonna help me process and accept and be grateful for the time of that relationship and then move forward.

SPEAKER_10 1:10:44

Hello everybody. My name is Giovanni. I was born in Milan, Italy, the 7th July 1976. A few days ago, I celebrated my 50th birthday, half a century of life spent according to the rules of the perfect manual. IB, University, Master in Business Administration, and Happy Marriage with three wonderful children, and a financial career always at the top as a manager before, and finally concluded last year with the sale of the company that I created ten years ago. After all these commitments and efforts, I needed to find again the simplicity of things. So I was attracted to the Camino precisely because of its essentiality.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:34

Second question. Was there anything you were intentionally walking away from and or walking towards to? Yeah, I wanted to walk away from having nightmares every night. Because I wanted to walk off all this pumped-up anger in me. And working towards to just any place is better than where I was. I didn't have a clear expectation. I intentionally made Camino without any agenda for what God should be doing for me, because I just felt like I want to go to Camino with open-mindedness and and just allow God to teach me wherever I needed to be told.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:18

I'd had some friends who'd done the Camino and I had heard about it, and so I wanted to do it as a sort of way of dealing with the grief and then also being able to move forward, accepting it and finding some optimism and reason for hope.

SPEAKER_10 1:12:34

I wanted to drop the masks I have worn for many years. The duty to become a sustainable manager, a perfect husband, a good father, and the founder of a company whose sole purpose was to call it money. Even if in reality, I already had inex and I didn't need it since many years. I felt hampedly. I wanted to start again to feel emotions, like when I was a kid, without money, but with many ambitions.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:06

So yeah, I remember the first day when I arrived at the starting point of Camino, and the first day involved some uphill hiking. It was physical challenging, and I remember thinking to myself, goodness, this is harder than I thought how I'm ever gonna finish this. And I even thought about options of giving up. But then yeah, I just felt like, oh maybe just focus on this day and not worry about it. Just let the worries of tomorrow worries itself. And so yeah, in the end I just didn't think about how I'm gonna finish it. Just thought about okay, tomorrow how much I can walk, maybe 15 kilometers, maybe 20. And then just do why I can in that day. And then in the end, it turns out I managed to finish the whole thing one day earlier.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:01

One of the people that I met was a lady named Marilyn, who when I asked her why she was walking, she was 77, and she was walking with her adult son named Todd. He was probably in his late 40s, and she said she was walking out of gratitude. And what she was grateful for was about 55 years of marriage to a man who passed away unexpectedly last fall after some surgery complications. And she and her late husband had hiked to the Camino seven times in their retirement. They weren't extremely wealthy. They just decided then their retirement years to spend the time doing much of the Camino routes and doing other trails around the world. Her son Todd was carrying uh his dad's backpack, and inside of his dad's backpack, he was carrying his father's ashes. And they were scattering their ash his dad's ashes at various points along the Camino. So we got to walk with him for a whole day, and at one point they pulled over to a small little church in the in the village, and they asked if my friend and I wanted to help and observe them spreading the ashes. And it's one of the most thin space moments I've ever had in my life. We got to pray and thank everyone, thank God for the life of Lloyd, and uh then we continued on. And what's funny is I had just met these people. Like I had literally just met them an hour before. And we were walking, and then all of a sudden I got invited into this extremely intimate, close moment.

SPEAKER_10 1:15:57

And the simple achievement of a daily stage, despite pain and suffering, has made me much more satisfied than any other success obtained in these years. The people met on the way have proven to be the most sincere and transparent I have ever known, unlike all the professional relationships I have had in the recent years.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:21

What, if anything, did you get out of Camino and or did Camino give you? Yeah, so I think what God told me from Camino was he can meet me in the ordinary, in every boring routine of getting up early, getting dressed, and just get walking. All I needed to think about is just to arrange the day, know where I sleep, and know my schedule, get up a certain hour, uh reach a place certain time, and then go to bed. And I repeat that process for a few days and then I managed to finish whole cameto. And I really feel like God told me that instead of focusing on a grand dream or spiritual ambition, just surrender my future into his hands and just do what he placed in front of me for that one day.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:16

I was walking towards and still am walking towards uh this idea of just radical acceptance. Instead of placing expectations or envying other people's lives or relationships, just really being content and accepting what is been given to me in my life. I felt like the physical experiences of actually walking, talking uh with my friend who did it with me, and then with other strangers on the Camino, over time I felt like there's this reality that kind of slowly seeped into my life of just waking up, having breakfast, getting on, start walking. And life becomes a lot simpler when you step off the Camino and you get back into your day-to-day. If you're able to keep that kind of rhythm, a type of rhythm that would be outlined in something like the Lord's Prayer of just accepting what's been given to you for the day. That's what I started journeying towards in the Camino. And what I loved about that time with Marilyn and her son Todd was that they were also on a journey of acceptance.

SPEAKER_10 1:18:32

This Camino has reminded me that in this world there are also selfless and sincere people who do not classify you by how you appear or by the social position you hold. Not only for what you are, that is a pilgrim with a backpack, just like the others. The Camino has given me back also those religious and human values that I had suffocated, and that instead I believe are the true purpose of this life. I found the pleasure of doing physical activity in the middle of nature and not in a gym. In short, I can find even one negative thinks about this experience. In fact, in September, I will do another Camino, the Portuguese. I want to conclude with a famous phrase from the film, the way you don't choose a life, you live one, one camino.

SPEAKER_15 1:19:32

My name is Stephanie, and I was born in New York. For the past year or so, I had been grappling with the aftermath of miscarriage and familial estrangement from someone whom I loved deeply since I was a child. Those losses unraveled me in ways that I'm still healing from. I went on the Camino seeking the kind of transformation that I'd heard about from others, though I had doubts that I would find it. Mostly I walked because I didn't know how else to find my way forward. There's a Buddhist parable about a woman who goes on a pilgrimage of sorts after losing her only child. It goes something like this. Desperate to bring her child back, the woman seeks healing from a wise man. He tells her that if she can bring him three mustard seeds from a family that has never lost anyone, he can grant her healing. Easy, she thinks. Mustard seeds are common. So she sets off to the first house down the road. The couple who opens the door has mustard seeds, but they're also grieving a grandmother. And though they can't provide what she's looking for, they invite her to stay the night before continuing on her journey. And so it goes, with the next family having lost a brother and the next a beloved friend. Everywhere she knocks, she finds that each household contains its own loss. Until at the end of a year's time, she returns to the wise man. Did you find the mustard seeds? He asks. No, she tells him. I could not find the mustard seeds to bring my child back. But instead, I found communion with those who have also loved and lost. And in that fellowship, I found my hope. And that, of course, was the healing that the wise man had intended for her all along. As I walked mile after mile on the Camino, my losses did not disappear. But I found kindness from strangers and wonder about the world and a constellation of stories. And I found that I was not walking alone after all, because I walked with others who shared a divine love and a collective grief that formed its own kind of kinship, beyond blood, beyond even the stars.

SPEAKER_11 1:22:48

With help from Evan Nestrak. Our theme music was composed by Nina Humphreys. Thank you to the Coneman Treesman Center for Behavioral Science and Public Policy at Princeton University for sponsoring Behavioral Scientist Reads and helping to make the podcast possible. You can subscribe to Behavioral Scientist Reads on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. You can also find us at behavioralscientist.org and our dedicated book club website, bookclub.behavioral scientists.org, to discover all our episodes, extra material, and leave feedback. Don't forget to rate and review the show. It will help other people discover the podcast. See you next time.